Jason Robinson OBE on infinite pie thinking with Al Fawcett

Jason Robinson OBE on World Cup Culture and Teamwork

Jason Robinson OBE on infinite pie thinking with Al Fawcett

Jason Robinson OBE on World Cup Culture and Teamwork

Todays guest is another person who has performed at the elite level, having appeared in 3 World Cup finals for England, both in Rugby League and Rugby Union and was part of the successful World Cup Winning side against Australia in 2003.

Jason Robinson OBE was known for his devastating acceleration, quick feet and balance. Couple this with his decision making and trade mark side step and he was often leaving defending  players grasping at air and struggling to keep up. He was awarded the MBE  for his role in the 2003 World Cup and the OBE for his services to Rugby in 2008.

In this conversation, you will hear how Jason did not let the challenges he faced as a youngster, or the stereotypes of being too small, or not strong enough projected onto him by others,  hold him back.  He drew on the lessons from the strongest person he knew.  His mother!

At infinite pie we talk about ensuring we “Do stuff that matters, with people who count in places that inspire!” It is all about focus on priorities, about teamwork and relationships and of course, culture and environment, including the one inside you, and your mindset. This conversation captures all of that, and demonstrated the importance of dedication, hard work, confidence, positive self talk, trust and resilience.  But it was more than just catch phrases and buzz words. Jason gave context to what it means to be a leader among leaders, to have a voice and be prepared to listen, to go out of your comfort zone and continue to learn something new.

Now in the next phase of his career, Jason is taking those lessons and applying them to business and he shares the role he plays and the value he brings to the teams he now plays for.

If you want to know more about Jason you can find him in the following places –

website – JasonRobinson.co.uk
Twitter – @Jason15Robinson
Instagram – @Jason15Robinson
LinkedIn – Jason Robinson OBE

If you like this conversation with Jason Robinson OBE, then you may also enjoy conversations with Aussie World Cup winner Michael Lynagh, former Leicester and England international Leon Lloyd, elite performance and England rugby kicking coach Dr Dave Alred MBE or how about 7 x World  Champion surfer Layne Beachley OA. Check these out and then have a look at the other remarkable guests who have shared their infinite pie thinking and perspective on high performance and performance improvement on the podcast page.

Full transcript of Jason Robinson OBE on World Cup Culture and Teamwork on Infinite Pie Thinking with Al Fawcett

Jason Robinson OBE on world cup culture and teamwork on infinite pie thinking with Al Fawcett. talking leadership, high performance, mindset, mentaliyt and overcoming challenges.

Jason Robinson  00:02

So I mean, I’ve gone from that shy lad to captaining my country and leading my country. So you know, I know what leadership is all about. I know what working with teams is all about, you know, I know what resilience is all about, you know, I’ve had failures, I’ve come back from failures, I’ve been able to deal with situations where I’ve not performed, and I’ve been heavily criticised for it. But I’ve found ways to get back out there and keep going and keep climbing that ladder, and all of a sudden, your heads above water, and you just carry on, you start back on that journey of success. But it’s amazing because, what I realised in business is there’s just things happening all the time and new learnings all the time, and I just find it so exciting. I want my World Cup in business now. I’ve had it in rugby, but I want it in business.


Al Fawcett  00:51

Hi, I’m Al Fawcett and this is infinite pie thinking. So let me start by telling you a little bit about what these conversations are all about. I get to talk with remarkable people who share their stories. We discuss their challenges, their experiences, their lessons, their perspective, and what they did and do with them. This is not really a how to guide but it is a look inside someone else’s world with a chance to see it from their side. I don’t think there is a one size fits all approach to things, however, we can learn from others and their successes, and how it may apply in our lives, both personally and professionally. It might be that you hear something new, or something that you’ve heard before, something that you do or something that you want to learn more about. And along the way, maybe you’ll think about those things a little differently, or in a new way. And of course, you take some action as a result. So okay, today’s guest is another person who has performed at the elite level, having appeared in three World Cup finals for England, both in rugby league and rugby union, and he was part of the successful World Cup winning side against Australia in 2003. Jason Robinson OBE was renowned for his devastating acceleration, quick feet and balance. Couple this with his decision making and his trademark sidestep and he was often leaving defending players grasping at air and struggling to keep up. He was awarded the MBE for his role in the 2003 World Cup, and the OBE for his services to rugby in 2008. In this conversation, you will hear how Jason did not let the challenges he faced as a youngster, or the stereotypes of being too small and not strong enough, hold him back. He drew on the lessons from the strongest person he knew, his mother. Now in the next phase of his career, Jason is taking those lessons and applying them to business. And he shares the role he plays and the value he brings to the teams he now plays for. Take a listen and et me know what you think. 


Al Fawcett  02:44

Jason, welcome to the pie thinking.

Jason Robinson  02:46

Thank you very much, great to be on. 

Al Fawcett  02:48

Look, Jason, I’m gonna go straight into this and say, not many people reach elite levels in their chosen field. And you did it in two sports, and now actually applying those same sort of principles in life after professional sport. So big question, I know, but what is it about you that drove that success?

Jason Robinson  03:08

Well, I suppose for me, I did have quite a tough upbringing, quite a challenging upbringing. Grew up in some of the most deprived areas in Leeds, single parent family, never knew my father, mum was a cleaner, two older brothers, my mom’s Scottish and she’s white, so I was brought up in a white household. As I say, we didn’t really have much, we had what we needed. My mum worked really, really hard. And I think, if one thing my mum taught me, she taught me to work hard. She was a cleaner, she worked three jobs, sometimes she’d be up at three o’clock in the morning. And I didn’t have too many positive male role models about, so my mum sort of taught me one of the most simple things you can do. And I think some of the basic lessons that she taught me have been really, really valuable. Now I left school no with qualifications, so I don’t have a trade behind me or anything else. And I was one of those that were told, you’ll never be anything, you’ll never do anything. You’re too small. You know, you’re not strong enough. You know, in my mind, I think because I’ve been through quite a lot of stuff when I was younger, I sort of learned a lot about resilience. You know, I learned to put things in different places, compartmentalise things, and and then, you know, despite being told, I’ve never been good enough, and I ended up signing for the best rugby league team in the world. So you know, within the space of a year, I ended up going from having a job working in cleaning metal, which was what I did straight out of school, to all of a sudden then playing for the biggest rugby league team in the world. So there’s a lot of changes that went on for me really, really…in a very short space of time, but I always take it back to just good work ethic, to just work, work really hard. And you know, it seems to have stood me in good stead.

Al Fawcett  04:47

I think is absolutely fantastic. And I love the fact those fundamentals of hard work and appreciating what you’ve got and those sort of bits and pieces and we’ll unpack a lot of that as we go through. I mean, obviously you had a natural talent and a natural gift, your speed and balance and that ability to move quickly in a variety of directions. But there’s lots of people with talent. So you mentioned about hard work, and I get that. But what about when you’re hearing those messages? When people are saying, you’re too small, you’re not strong enough. What’s your response to that? Does that make you want to work harder? Does that drive you on more? Motivate you to prove them wrong? Or did sometimes they creep in and go, well, maybe I’m not good enough? I mean, how did you respond to that?

Jason Robinson  05:30

Yeah, well, I think again, just lessons learned. One of the toughest people I know in life was what, about four foot six, and that was my mother. So I realised it wasn’t all about size, but I don’t know, I think whilst a lot of people have seen me, you know, quick feet, I was fast, I only got up to sort of playing for Yorkshire in my amateur days. So I didn’t really excel, you know, I got county level, but that was it. But I knew I was quick, I knew I had good feet. And it’s, it’s just believe it. So it’s a mindset, you know, I knew there were players that were faster than me, and even in the professional game, but I just…I almost wanted it more than anybody else. And sometimes it’s not about whether you’re more qualified than anybody else, because there’s always somebody that’s smarter and  somebody quicker.

But I actually wanted it more than anybody that I felt stood in front of me. I always remember that, just stood on a pitch, you know, coming up against some of these guys, they were more educated than me, they did have more knowledge about the game than I did, some of them quicker than me, etc, etc. But if you want something so much, and you’re willing to work hard, then you can do anything you want. And my mum just encouraged me, just go out, just be your best. And, and I realised that actually, I am good enough, I might not be as qualified in your eyes, or I might be small, but you know, I’m tough enough, I can bring people down. And quite often, everybody’s had it.

You know, I’m not…this is not an isolated incident, people will tell you that you either come from the wrong place, you know, you don’t fit in, or you’re a woman and you shouldn’t be in this place. You know, it’s a man’s world. Well, it’s a load of nonsense. Or sometimes, when people tell you, you’re not good enough. I mean, it does add a bit of motivation to your cause. But for me, I just want it to be the best I could be. It wasn’t about being the best in the world. Because if you’re trying to be the best in the world, how long does that last? If you’re a company and you want to be the best, it’s almost like, you know, one minute you’re there, next minute you’re not. So for me, in terms of judging myself, or just in terms of judging, the best judge was me because I knew if I could have got to that ball, I’ve seen it so much. I’ve seen so many people within the game, and you might be tackled, they might be in a ruck, only you know, whether you could get out of that ruck, or you’re staying in the ruck just to have a breather.

So my most critical judge was myself and I wanted to get better, I wanted to improve. And, and again, that coupled with real good work rate and just that desire just to stand opposite somebody and just think, you do not want this more than me. So hunger, you know, belief, the mental side, because you can have all the tools you want. For me, you know, I had the feet, you know, I was quick, etc, etc. I suppose my greatest strength was my mind, whether it’s sport or business, things do not always go right. And I’ve seen players just crushed by things happening. What I learned to do over a long period of time, was handle pressure. And that handling pressure came through a few things. One was, being really good at what I did. And then the preparation and the process and everything else.

Al Fawcett  08:40

I think it’s really, really fascinating. And what I find really fascinating about it is that you’re saying that, you’ve got to have the fundamentals there. So you’re putting the work in, because I think sometimes it’s easy for people to focus on the extras and the bits around it. But putting that work ethic in to want it more, to fight for that, and therefore be prepared to work on, but it’s what do we work on? And we’ll come back to that as well. But where you were talking about the mindset thing, and that ability to handle pressure. So you’ve done that work, which gives you that confidence and that ability to go, I know I had the ability to run past this person, bring this person down or whatever it might be. But that doesn’t give you the mindset to actually go and do it. That’s got to be a different trigger in your mind, surely, that actually says, I’m seeing this giant come at me and I’m going to run towards this rather than away from it. That’s got to be something that you’ve got to work on, surely?

Jason Robinson  09:34

Well you’ve definitely got to work on it, but I wasn’t afraid. I was always the smallest. So a big person running at me, well, that happened all the time. But it was, it was a confidence of, I knew what I was good at. And I just kept working it and kept working it and working it, and the key thing was, I knew at some point, I wasn’t always going to break the line. I wasn’t always going to score the try, but it’s how the mind then is when those things don’t happen. You know, if I don’t break the line or I get turned over, and we lose a ball, does that then stop the way I want to play? So for me, it was putting it in the right place. So yes, I’ve got caught, and maybe one time or a couple of times, I’ve lost the ball. But I still knew what I was good at. And I was that confident that it would work the next time. So I didn’t just throw it away. I didn’t just think right, well, I’ve been caught now, I’m not going to do it again. The reason why I was different is because I played on the edge, it probably looked like a bit of high risk, high reward. But I knew that every time I got the ball, I could beat whoever was in front of me, it was a given. And sometimes it might be a case of right, I know I can beat five people. And that might sound like too arrogant. But I just knew what I was good at. I was small, I had good feet, I had explosive power. And I knew the work that I was putting in to keep that to get better to get faster to get stronger. So even when that didn’t work, I still believed that it worked the next time. So I didn’t really deviate from what I was doing. I didn’t let the negative thoughts get into my mind to then control how I acted next. And sometimes when we make decisions, and they don’t work, sometimes we just leave it and we never try again.

And you know, how do you build up resilience to something if every time you get caught, or something doesn’t go your way, then you just sort of say, well, I’m just gonna park that to one side, you know, sometimes you just need to work on that and keep working on it, because it might have been that something wasn’t quite right that…I used to leave it to about a metre before I got close to somebody. And that was the difference between me making the break or not. But the problem is, most people wouldn’t get to that metre distance, they just kicked the ball, because that was the easy thing to do. But I knew that when I got to this point, then I’ve got the ball, I’ve got the quick feet, I’ve got the explosive power. So now this is on my terms. This is how I like it. So I tried to manipulate situations so that I was in control of it.


Al Fawcett  12:06

That’s what I’m hearing, what I’m hearing is, I’ve made a decision, which is now making that person, the person trying to defend me, on their back foot and having to make a decision as well, one that they’re probably not expecting, not used to and it’s like, where’s he going to go? What’s he going to do? Rather than you being indecisive and they take the upper hand and the control and put you on the backfoot?

Jason Robinson  12:29

Sometimes it’s just about confidence. Sometimes people don’t make that break. You know, they might do the same thing, but they’re not confident. And if you’re not confident, you know, sometimes it just doesn’t happen, because you don’t commit to it the same.

Al Fawcett 12:41

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So were you one of these people that, you know, when you see people that sort of stand apart, and they’re the ones that are always sticking their hand up, wanting the ball. They’re the ones that want to take the last shot, they’re the ones that have enough confidence in their own ability. Sports is the easiest way to demonstrate it, whether it’s in basketball, where it’s the person who wants to take the last shot on the buzzer, whether it’s a person who, in cricket, wants to go, give me the ball, I’m going to take these wickets, I know they’ve got to hit this many runs in this many balls. I’ve got the confidence in my ability. And you can see the flip side as well, where you can see the people who are throwing the ball and they go, I don’t want this, I’d rather somebody else. Or the penalties. No, I’m not taking a penalty in football, because I don’t want that pressure. So performing under pressure is a skill in itself, surely? 


Jason Robinson  13:26

It is, but it’s also a confidence that comes with just the hours we put into it. I mean, it was our job, it was our lives, to be fit, you know, to study the game, nutrition-wise, to be in perfect shape, going into the gym to be strong, you know, being fast, just working on all these things so our bodies were just finely tuned to do the job that we were doing. Not only that, we’re looking at technology, looking at analysing everything, teams, opposition, so every time if I was playing against you, then I know which foot you sidestep off, I know roughly how fast you are. I know that you made two miss tackles on your left shoulder last week. And so all of a sudden, we’re putting all this information into our brains, you know, into our computers. And then when I come onto the field and I’m coming up against you, now I’m just computing all that information. So I know that whether or not I’m faster than you, I can stand you up and take you on the inside. I know if you over commit, I can come back inside. You know, I know roughly whether you’re as confident now because you’ve just dropped two balls.

So, do you know what I mean? That all these things are just happening all the time and you’re just pulling on all these different bits of information as well as all the training you’re doing. And you know, when somebody kicks a high ball up to me when I stood in front…this is quite amazing this, because when I was at school, if you asked me to read a book, I would crumble in front of a class of 30, one of the most horrific things that ever happened to me. You…and this is how we can be complete opposites, because of the study and the effort and the time I put into honing my skills as a professional sportsman, you put me in front of 80,000 people, millions and millions of watching on TV, in the stadium, that’s just all this atmosphere. And it’s just, I just feel at peace. It just feels like this is my office, it’s just, it’s just like driving the car, it’s just a natural and normal thing. You know, we train under pressure, so that when it comes to a game, that pressure is just no different to what we train under. You know, when we train, we don’t just go through our plays, we don’t just go through the motions, we always train against opposition, we always train under pressure.

So if somebody’s doing a drop goal, somebody will be charging them down. Because it’s amazing what you can do when there’s no pressure. You know, you can close a deal out, you can do this, you can do so many things when there’s no pressure on you. All of a sudden, if you put pressure on, that really is the difference. That’s the difference between good and great. When the pressure’s on, because that’s the difference between somebody saying, no, don’t give me the ball, or actually, no, I want it now, give me the ball. This is my time, this is my opportunity. And then there’s certain times in the game, you know, we wanted Jonny Wilkinson to have the ball because we knew what he could do in those situations. But at the same time, if we needed a try scoring, and we’ve got a scrum, right, there was certain moves, there was certain calls, and it would be just to give me the ball and let me do my thing, because we knew that would be the best thing in that particular circumstance. So yeah, it’s amazing how it all works out.

Al Fawcett  16:36

I’m sure. Right, I got two questions with regards to the pressure and the stories that you’ve shared so far. So one is relating to the performance and then the analysis piece. And you said about, if things didn’t work, you always had that ability to try it again. You weren’t shy and going, I’m not going to do that again. But when it didn’t work a couple of times, was that the type of thing that afterwards, the following week, you’d be analysing that and go, so why didn’t it work? What happened that time that stopped that from coming off? Or did you sort of go, it’s just one of those things, I’ve got confidence in my ability, I’m going to keep trying it because I’m fine. And the other part, which sort of feeds into that, is that resilience thing that you said, was there ever times in during the match, so you haven’t got the chance to perform and analyse, you’re just in the moment where once or twice, or maybe three times that, let’s say that high ball goes up, and you drop it or you don’t quite get it in the way that you want, or you get a complete thumping the first time you catch it, that shakes that resilience and shakes that confidence, or you just like, shake it off and let’s go and do this again? That’s…I find that type of stuff really fascinating.

Jason Robinson  17:43

Yeah, I think, to start with, you know, sometimes when things don’t go right on the field, sometimes you have to address it there and then. So for me, it was self talk. So I made a mistake, you know, maybe I missed a tackle or dropped a ball. So in my mind, I’d processed, rather than things come at you straightaway, your mind is the battlefield. So straightaway, I’ve got a battle on, because there’s a part of my mind that will say, well, you know, you’ve dropped the ball and be all negative. And then I almost trained my mind to then just think, right, okay, get back into the game, what are you good at? So it’d be just be getting ahold of the ball, doing a good run, making the tackle, next job, next job, next job, and all of a sudden, it’s kind of…it’s gone, you know, what happened a few minutes ago, five minutes ago is completely gone from your mind, because you’re actually focusing on what’s coming up now, as opposed to what’s just happened.

And some players, if you drop a ball or miss a tackle, and they score, all of a sudden, the seeds of doubt come in, or you don’t want to be in that position again. And then that affects confidence, body language, and people pick up on that all the time. So straightaway, something happened, I would just self talk myself back into doing something good or a couple of things good and then I’m back into the game. Quite often after the game, obviously, there’s a lot of analysis, and it’s probably one of the only jobs where we analyse everything. Every time we come to training, you know, we’ve got GPS systems on us. So they know everywhere we’ve been on this day. You know, there’s these cameras on us so that you can’t say, well, I was over there and I was doing that because they will pick every movement up. The stadiums have got cameras on so they can track how far you’ve run, how fast you’ve run, everything’s there. So there’s no hiding place.

What we have to do all the time…so we build up in our week to prepare for this game. And then we get to the game and we play and we go through whatever it is, however the game is gone. But straightaway after that, we analyse and not only sort of mentally analyse. Once we’ve done that, we have to get our bodies right, so we go through this process of just trying to repair our bodies all week, you know, trying to get either stuff sorted out from the last game and improve on that. So for example, if I miss a couple of tackles then I would make sure that I spent a bit of time with the defensive coach and just, you know, whether it’s just a little bit of technique I needed to sharpen up on. So there would be bits around that, maybe I was out of position. So you look and think, right, well, maybe next time I need to be there, and then there would be sometimes where you’re just like, it just happens.

You know, sometimes you can overanalyze, it’s all well and good, and just making sure you don’t keep repeating mistakes. But sometimes, no matter how much analysis you do, no matter how much work you do, you’re gonna make mistakes, you know, it’s knowing which ones to pick up on. Is this just a, I’ve dropped the ball, but it’s probably what happens once every six games, you know, so that’s not really something I need to be focused on. There might be other things that have crept into your game and sometimes that might be because actually, I’m carrying an injury and now that’s affecting my confidence, and I don’t want to take some tackles on this shoulder, so I’m just being a little bit shy, do you know what I mean, I’m just being a little bit shy on this side, you’ve got to analyse, it’s massively important. It’s funny now, sort of, coming out of sport and into business, how sometimes it’s completely the opposite, or the analysis only comes six months down the line. The difference for us in the rugby field, if we make a mistake, or lose a game, or there’s something we need to sort out, we have to get it done straight away. So we played the game, we have to get it done, we have to get addressed. Because we know if we do not, you know, other teams will be looking at the analysis, looking at our weaknesses. And if we don’t get that sorted out, they’ll attack us straightaway, then we’ll lose the next game, and we’ll lose the next game.

So we’re always analysing individual performance, you know, physical performance and mental performance. And then we’ll put something in place to sort that out. Whereas within business, you could spend months, you know, making the same mistake over and over again, and all of a sudden, you’re called into the office six months down the line. And all of a sudden, the company, the business is in a big hole, because it’s not being addressed. And, you know, it’s been the elephant in the room. And very rare, there’s an elephant in the room in rugby that is not addressed straightaway. If somebody’s done something, most of the time, 99% of the time, the player will put his hand up and say, that was my fault, or at least challenge it, and he will be challenged straightaway. And the reason being is that, we want to be the best we can be, so we all have to challenge each other not to pick at each other but because we’re in the pursuit of excellence.

And the only way to get that is if we keep sharpening each other, we keep challenging each other and say, well, why are we doing this? Let’s not ask why in six months time, we all need to be buying into something so, quite often in an office or in an organisation where people are thinking why, but never asked why. And it’s only down the line that it kind of gets addressed, and, and people say, well, I knew that six months ago? Well, if we’d addressed it six months ago, how far further on could we have been as a business? If we just challenged it when it came up? And got rid of the elephant in the room? I love the accountability of sport, because it now makes me accountable in business.

Al Fawcett  22:53

Yeah, we’ll talk about how you brought a lot of those traits and those skills and those principles across, but how much at the elite level? Well, I suppose it happens at all levels, but how much of it in a sports environment, in the team, is it player-led? In the movies, they’ll always do the wonderful sort of big halftime motivational speech by the coach that everybody gets filled with emotion about and we all go out shoulder to shoulder. But in reality, is it more about the individual players who are excellent at what they do, they wouldn’t be there if they weren’t knowing their role and holding everybody accountable to the role that they play, as opposed to relying on coaches and managers and trainers and whatever to point that out all the time? 


Jason Robinson  23:37

Well, I have to say the best teams I’ve ever been in have been more player-led. Now when I say player-led, that’s just because we’ve had some exceptional talent, you know, within those teams, but Clive Woodward was a great example of, he was great at pulling things together. Okay, so he created an environment for us to be the best we could be. Now you can have a great team, you can have great individuals. But if you don’t create the right environment, then you’re not going to get the best outcome. Clive Woodward was great, and we had the best backs coach, forwards coach, kicking coach, lineout coach, we even had an eye coach he brought in, it was all about the one percenters and and for me as a player, it was brilliant because I’d come from rugby league, and I’m thinking, well, can I learn that much more in rugby union?

And then when Clive put all these things together, I’m thinking why why do we need an eye coach? I can see, do you know what I mean? But it was all about visual perceptions and how can we get better? So we work with this lady called Sherylle Calder, Dr. Sherylle Calder, and it was all about what do you see? So for me, it was what do I see when I catch a ball at fullback, straightaway, what do I see? And quite often it was always a threat. So it was a four or five South Africans breathing down my neck, ready to kill me, you know, and all of a sudden now, my focus was on the threat and I couldn’t see anything else but through a lot of different things, whether it be working on the computer or going working out in the field, she taught us to look at the big picture and to use the peripheral vision and also understand, that if we see the big picture, then we can make better decisions. So all of a sudden, now, when I was catching the ball, I wasn’t just looking at the threat, I was looking at, hang on a minute, yes, I can see that the big guys coming to fill me in, but I can also see now, there’s space at the back, that wingers come up into the lines and there’s space down on the left hand side, the full backs out of position, I can also see and hear that I’ve got two people in support.

So with that in mind, and with that knowledge, now, I was able to make better decisions, rather than just thinking, I’m gonna get hit. So even stuff like that, it was massive, you know, it did make a big difference to us, and certainly for me as a fullback. So Clive Woodward put some great things into place. But then also, he didn’t need to ask Martin Johnson to stay out and do more lineout or he wasn’t coaching Martin Johnson what to say, because Martin Johnson had that experience, he had that knowledge. And he was one of the best at doing it. He didn’t have to say to Jonny Wilkinson, look, you know, maybe you need to stay out for another half an hour and kick a few balls. No, Johnny was out two hours before training, and two hours after.

So there were a lot of things within our team that was player-led. You know, we had a captain, Martin Johnson, you know, we had our manager, but we also had…it was almost a team within a team. And we had leaders in the back, so somebody would be doing the attacking game, somebody would be doing the defensive game, somebody would be in charge of the lineouts. So all of a sudden, now, instead of the pressure just being on one person, the pressure was shared within the knowledge of the team. So it’s pointless if we get a penalty, well, Jonny Wilkinson would step up and say, right, I’m going to goal, he would just make that decision. Martin Johnson, if he felt the momentum was with the team, he would say, yeah, we’re taking this lineout, you know, so a lot of things were player-led. If we had a scrum and we needed to score a try, I’d be like, right, this is a call, I want the ball. So there was a lot of things that will player-led. And we had lots of meetings together and we challenged each other, we really challenged each other. And some of that was really heated, you know, we had a war room. And if you weren’t too happy with stuff, then you would speak your mind, there was no sort of sitting back and just letting things go on. Everybody would challenge you. If there was something that you didn’t think was right, or a play that we’re doing that wasn’t right, or tactics, then you would challenge the system. And by doing that, you know, yes, it was player-led, but we were just sharpening each other.

And if Clive Woodward suggested something, and we didn’t think it was right, or, you know…we would challenge it, and vice versa, he would challenge us and say, look, you know, why are we playing like this? You know, why don’t we go out? Because Clive wanted us to really take it to teams. And when you play against the likes of New Zealand or Australia, who back in the day, they were the guys that led everything, you know, Clive wanted us to be the leaders, Clive wanted them to fear us, not the other way around, he wanted us to have that confidence, that no matter where we are, what the field was like, we knew that on our day, we could beat anybody in the world. And by challenging each other, by making each other accountable, you know, we certainly got to that point where we were the best in the world. 

Al Fawcett  28:01

Well, yeah. And that little cup demonstrates that. I think that’s fantastic. And I love so many elements of that about that ability to challenge each other, that ability to make decisions in different roles and different positions. And it comes back to what you said earlier about that confidence, that confidence of sticking your hand up and saying, I’m going to take this kick, or give me the ball, I’m going to make something happen. And it sounds like that what Clive was doing was setting up a culture of success. This is what success looks like. And this is the roles that we all play in that. And if you want to play in this game, this is the standard of performance that we expect. And I imagine that obviously there was a lot of strategic thinking of, who are the right people in the right positions for specific games and specific styles of play and specific approaches. I love the mindset stuff that you talked about. And I’ve picked back up on the war room piece that you said where there’s lots of challenge of people that I imagine, and again, I’ll ask it as a question, that that was always coming from a place of, we all agree we want this to get better, rather than it coming from a place of, well, I’m not getting enough ball or you’ve let me down because of…it’s more of that thing of right, we’re both facing in the same direction here that we want this team to be better than it was the last time we played and the last time we played and the last time we played. And in order to do that, we give each other permission to call each other out on things. Is that fair?

Jason Robinson  29:27

Yeah. I mean, you’re sort of hitting spot on. When you talked about culture to start with, if the culture is not right, then you’ve got big problems. So what we realised was, there was nobody bigger than the team. Yes, we’ve got some some of the world’s best players. But that said, mobody was better than the team. Nobody came before the team. And and if you didn’t fit into that culture, then you kind of got pushed out because it was all about the team being successful. If the team is successful, we’re all successful. So it’s not just about me scoring tries or Jonny Wilkinson kicking goals, the World Cup was won by a team that was so committed to the same goal, the same values and would work…you know, if I missed the tackle, I know somebody would be busting their backside to make sure that they covered my back, that was almost like them missing a tackle. And if somebody dropped a ball, then you know, you get behind and, nevermind, come on, let’s get back into the game. And it was all about…we knew everybody bought into it and we were driven because we had a common goal. And that is because we wanted to be the best in the world on our own, we couldn’t do it, together, bringing all those different skill sets, different thoughts, yes, we challenge each other. But that was the best way of getting the best out of all of us.

So yes, we bought into it, and you have to buy into it. Because it just doesn’t go…if you’ve got two or three players, own agenda, just thinking about, right, well, I need it for this reason. The only reason why somebody would say, I want the ball is because it was making what we’re doing better, not their personal goal. And we had a team of outstanding talent that had that respect, that everybody was different. You know, we knew we had a forward path that could dominate teams, that would get on the front foot, we had a lineout that was really, really good, really effective. We put pressure on people, we knew we had the best kicker in the world, we knew we could score tries. So we’re all quite comfortable in our skin knowing that, you know, we don’t know everything. But one thing I realised when I came into rugby union was it was, just such a great environment to learn. Because whilst I was one of the best footwork and beating people, well I couldn’t kick when I came to rugby union, because I’d never done it before in rugby league, I wasn’t required to do it.

So I had to upskill myself and I spent hours and hours with Dave Alred, and just learning the principles of kicking and how to do it. And when I first started off, deary me, I went from bad to abysmal, I was shocking. But he taught me the principles of it, how you hold it, what you’re doing, the follow through, everything else. And all of a sudden, it started to click, and I started to get it and all of a sudden now, I’ll be spending hours and hours and hours and just perfecting that, until, you know, such point that I knew now, I have the confidence to be able to do what I need to do when I need to do it. And I did that, because I didn’t want to let the team down. And it was all about upskilling each other.

When I came into the England team, I remember Jonny Wilkinson looking at my footwork and thinking, hang on a minute, I’m a great kicker, but I want to be able to do that, do you know what I mean?. So I challenged them and they challenged me and we just got better and better. And in training sometimes they come to blows, and you know, it’s rugby, it’s physical. And sometimes we have to let off a bit of steam, but it was all around because we just wanted to be the best. And sometimes it’s just like a handshake. And just, yeah, I was wrong, let’s just get on with it. But it was that pursuit of excellence. And when you’re in a company, when you’re in a sport, and you look around the group that you’ve got, and you see the different skill sets, and you know that they’ve got you back, you know that they’re gonna leave absolutely everything out on that field or in that workplace. I mean, there’s no greater feeling, because you just know that no matter what we’re going to come up against today, we have every tool that we need to deal with it. It’s an amazing feeling, I’m starting to get more of that now in business, I’m looking at how I used to manipulate the situation on the field, give me the ball, I don’t even need space, just give me the ball, and then I create it.

Just going into a boardroom now and sitting back because I don’t have the same skill set as they do, but I just see how they just carve things out of…at times, I think you know, that this is dead in the water, and then you just see them doing their thing and and how they use their skillset to bring things back in line or or throws the ball back into their court or we start then to, you know, really control the meeting. And I love it. I love learning and the ways that people have, the skills that people have. And I think, if you’re willing to learn, you know, no matter who you are, where you are in life, you’re always going to keep getting better, because things are changing. And you know, as a product, as a player, in business, you have to keep getting better. You know, you might have one company of the year or you might have won the World Cup, but that was last year, do you know what I mean? 

Al Fawcett  34:18

Yeah, I always find it really fascinating. When people turn around, say, yeah, I’ve got 30 years experience and you go, have you got 30 years experience, or have you got one years experience, 30 times, because you’re just doing the same thing over and over and over again. And it comes back to what you were saying earlier. And literally the hairs on the back of my neck started to stand up as you were talking about a lot of the stuff you’re talking about because of that passion and enthusiasm that’s coming through. And when we mentioned culture earlier and earlier on you talked about the ‘why’, you talked about, why are we doing this? And that’s a question that starts to create the culture, right? It’s like, we’ve got to have a ‘why’ and if we’re all aligned to that why, or at least have an understanding of it and feel like what role we play in achieving that, that’s got to be a massive, we’re all in this together, we’re all in this pursuit of excellence, we know the direction we’re heading.

Again, going back to your eye doctor, what I loved about that story is that it wasn’t about the literal, I am going to improve your peripheral vision. But it’s the ability to see different things within it, because you’re focused on different things. So therefore, you still saw the challenges. Again, in your story you talked about, I still saw the challenge, but I saw the opportunity. And I immediately thought about great business people who do the same thing. They see the challenge, there’ll be some people within business that will just focus on the challenge. We can’t because…or they’re bigger than us, or they’ve got more money than us or this is a problem because…and you’ll see others that step back from it and go, that’s a challenge, but look at all this opportunity over here that we’re missing out on. So which one do we choose to focus on? So are you starting to come into business? And we’ll talk about this for a second, do you bring some of those skill sets and in that experience, if you like, of those player-led, the experience of the people like a Clive Woodward, do you come in as a player? Or do you come in more as a coach? Or you boot in both camps in those scenarios?

Jason Robinson  36:13

Yeah, I think…I mean, I’ve never passed an exam in my life. So I come into it with honesty, humility, but also, if I come into it, I want it to be successful, and how can we be successful? And quite often, the start of things is actually just hiring the right people. You know, you can say, this is our culture, and we want you to buy into it and everything else. But I want to be around people that like challenges. I want to be around people that have vision, I like the carrot being thrown out way, way in front of me, not just in front of my eyes. I want it thrown out, because part of the success for me is the journey. And how we take this from being a company with 10 employees, all of a sudden, now we got 100 employees, and you know, we’ve gone from turnover this to turnover that. There’s got to be a well, a big carrot for me, but sometimes even in sport, sometimes some people just don’t want it, they’ve got all the skills, you know, they’ve got all the talent, but sometimes they don’t have any drive. And I have to have drive. Because in many ways, I haven’t got as much talent. Do you know what I mean? I don’t have a Master’s. I don’t have this.

So part of it for me is like, where can I be effective in this company? Right. You know, I’m not gonna go, you know, yeah, we have a tech business. What do I know about tech? You know, I struggle to just do my phone. So where can I make a difference within this organisation? You know, and I know my strengths, I know my weaknesses. And I also sometimes have to skill myself. But I’m still true to myself. And I make myself accountable. Because I’ve got to have a reason for getting up in the morning, it’s not to tick a box. And as I played on the edge, as a player now in business, I know that success is is not comfortable. Success is not just doing your, you know, your eight hours a day and going home, it is making sacrifices, it is sometimes not putting my kids to bed, it is sometimes working hours that are just not great whatsoever. I could be wrong, but sometimes it is taking calls when I’m eating, sometimes you have to do as much as you can to try and get that momentum within a company or get things moving. Otherwise, who’s going to do it?

Al Fawcett  38:24

In my mind, there’s not a one size fits all, so, in the sense of, it’s so easy to read a business book, to speak with remarkable people and try and emulate the way that they do it. And I’m a great believer in you can copy what somebody does, but you can’t copy who they are. So it’s easy to go, oh, well, this very, very successful businessman gets up at four o’clock in the morning and does three hours of yoga and meditation. And I’m going to do that…well, I might get value from that, but that’s not as you said, true to me. It’s not who I am. And there might be some people who switch the phone off at six o’clock at night and go, I’m not answering another business call, but I will be my best person when I come into the office. And that’s great, too. But it’s about knowing yourself. And something that you’ve said to me before is that it’s about knowing your value. So it’s about knowing what you bring to the party. But you said a second ago that I’ve never passed a test in my life, most mortifying situation you ever were in was being asked to read in front of the class and now you’re sitting in boardrooms. So how do you avoid imposter syndrome? How do you sit in that boardroom and avoid or overcome, if it does pop in, that situation of I don’t deserve to be here, I haven’t got a degree, I haven’t got an MBA. What keeps you going? What keeps you going back into that boardroom to want to know more, to want to put yourself in those environments?

Jason Robinson  39:44

Yeah, I suppose when I’m in those environments, yeah, and I talk about not having any qualifications. And in some ways, you know, I’m not qualified, but when I’m sat there, I know why I’m sat there, because in my own field, I’ve had more success than most and I don’t play anymore. So me sat in a boardroom is not because I’m going to go out and do 40 minutes of rugby for them, you know, I know what I have, I’ve learned a set of skills through playing, that now are transferable. I’m quite happy to let a lot of stuff go over my head, because I’m not supposed to know everything. But sometimes we get too consumed about knowing everything. For me, it’s like, I know what I need to know. And I know what can do with that. And I know how I can have an effect. And when it comes to it, play my part in this organisation. There’s no point me worrying about kicking goals, when I’m not the kicker, because it’s not going to come to me. I just need to look at the things that I’m going to be asked to do and make sure that when I’m called upon to do it, I deliver in my own field.

So yeah, so if I’m honest, you know, sometimes I overplay a little bit, but what I didn’t realise at the time, when I made the switch from sport, you know, into the business world, I just didn’t realise how much would transfer over into business. It’s been nice to know, I know, actually more than I thought I did. And  sometimes I’ll sit in the meetings and whilst a lot of stuff goes over my head, sometimes I’ll sit in meetings and I’ll talk about something and people will look at me as if I’ve just invented the wheel and, it’s like, well, doesn’t everybody do that? So, I mean, I’ve gone from that shy lad, to captaining my country and leading my country. So you know, I know what leadership is all about. I know what working with teams is all about, you know, I know what resilience is all about, you know, I’ve had failures, I’ve come back from failures, I’ve been able to deal with situations where I’ve not performed, and I’ve been heavily criticised for it. But I’ve found ways to get back out there and keep going and keep climbing that ladder, and all of a sudden, your heads above water, and you just carry on, you start back on a journey of success. But it’s amazing, because what I realised in businesses, there’s just things happening all the time and new learnings all the time. And I just find it so exciting.

I want my World Cup in business now. I’ve had it in rugby, but I want it in business. And what I’ve tried to do as well is, align myself with companies that share the same values. That want to get better, that want to do things the right way, that are driven, you know, they’re not just content with where we’re at now, you know, they have a bigger picture, they have goals, and that’s what gets me going, that’s what gets my juices going. It’s like a ball being kicked to fullback, all of a sudden, now I’m ready. I’m excited. And I think that’s one of the good things about business for me now is I’m getting lots of opportunities to bring that ball back and show people what I’m capable of doing and how that can help them.

Al Fawcett  42:36

I love that. And I love the world cup in business metaphor. And again, like I said it, I can hear it in your voice and I can see it in the way that your energy’s going. And it’s almost like that adrenaline of the ball in the air again, but you’re seeing this in a business environment. So you talk about World Cup in business. Now, when we talked about the World Cup in rugby, you talked about the fact that you recognise and realise that it wasn’t about you as an individual, it was about you as an individual and individual brilliance in a team of individual brilliance and coming together as a team. So do you find yourself tuned to that within the business environment now? You’re coming in and you’re seeing player-led experience, you’re seeing the, right, the person at the top, who’s setting the strategy and the approach, but actually communicating it in an effective way. So it’s allowing those people to be empowered and enabled to make those effective decisions. Is that the type of stuff that you’re saying that you you’re seeing a lot of the comparables that you can bring across, and also seeing it when it’s not working as effectively as in, hang on a minute, this is all about one person shouting and making all the decisions, and not allowing other people who are highly skilled to actually perform at their best. I mean, is that where your radars on? Is that the type of thing that you’re seeing?

Jason Robinson  43:47

Yeah, I mean, there’s a real mixed bag. It’s easy to spot the things that I would normally do in a rugby field, and then go into business and think, wow, you know, how come like that part of the business is just going on and doing their thing, and that part of the business is just going on and doing their thing. And then you’ve got to wonder why nothing’s joined up. You got a lot of people here doing lots of good things, but you’re not achieving your goals. Or you might be achieving your individual goals, your group goals, but hang on a minute, this is not about, yes, you’ve got to hit your targets. But what about the business targets? What about the overall targets? Because if we all work on those little things, but pull them all together, all of a sudden, those targets are just blown through the roof, because we’re connecting them all. This is where some of it just is so obvious and I’m thinking, well, where’s the communication here?

We’re all trying to achieve the same thing and now there’s so many overlaps in the business and, you know, we could have saved ourselves that work by just talking to each other, that could have saved us months of trying to get into this organisation or drive the business this way. And all of a sudden, we haven’t done that. So I do see lots of things like that  within business, but I also see them when it’s done right, and you see businesses and you think, well, yeah, there’s some great individuals in here, but they’re really pulling all this together. And sometimes it is the pulling of together, that is the difference. And quite often that communication…you know, in sport, it’s quite brutal. You know, and it’s not for the faint hearted, because the way we speak to each other in sport, I mean, most of the businesses I’m in, you come speak to somebody like that, you’ll probably get fired, but we speak to each other like that in the sports world, because we haven’t got time just to be messing about with things, we have to just kind of deal with them head on. And we have to call things out, you have to identify things that are not going right, you have to say to people like this is not working, we got to do something about it. And I love the honesty of that has been so good for me as an individual, because it’s just the best way of doing it. Because I know they’re not saying it because they don’t like me, they’re saying it because we want to get better.

But the problem is I find sometimes within the business world is that sometimes we’re afraid to call out, afraid to say what’s really happening, because the mindset of those around isn’t the same, or the mindset of the boss or wherever. So there’s so many things that can really accelerate businesses, and there’s so many things that can really pull businesses back. And sometimes it can be as simple as communication, you know, one side is not talking to the other side, and all of a sudden, now we’re doing twice the amount of work we should be doing. Because all the dots are not connected. So it’s interesting.

And that’s, you know, there’s a lot of things I don’t see in business, because I’m not as tuned to certain things within business, but I can around performance, I can around teams, or you can have somebody within an organisation who are very loud, and they might be insecure, and they might come across really confident. But then there might be somebody in the corner that hardly says anything but they might be the strongest people in the organisation, but they don’t always get chance to speak and, and that’s one of the things we always did, no matter how many characters were in a rugby team. I mean, you’ve got some big guys, 20 stone, six foot, seven, six foot, eight, you know, so in that environment, it would be quite easy just to let the ones that are physically dominant, just dominate everything that’s going on. But there was a respect within there that everybody had a voice.

So everybody’s opinion mattered. So it wasn’t just because I’m the captain, that people would listen, because I have something to contribute. And when people feel that they can contribute to something they buy into it more, there’s nothing worse than just thinking, well, it’s only the captain or it’s only the manager that’s gonna have a say, nobody’s listening to me, when actually some of the best nuggets, you know, in sport or business could come from the guy that doesn’t always shout about it. But just giving him a couple of minutes on how he sees that, might be the education we need, it might be the difference between, you know, winning that game or being successful in sport and business. So it’s valuing everybody within the organisation and giving them a voice and making sure that they feel that they can contribute to the outcome of this business or team.

Al Fawcett  47:48

Yeah, I see that all the time. Like yourself, if I get brought into organisations a lot of the time to help with the team building side of things. Because there’s organisations that work in silos, in fact, you can actually sometimes see it where their individual teams and functions and operational units can be in competition with one another rather than external. If they do that, then we don’t get to do this, as opposed to what are we all trying to achieve together? And that communication thing is key to all of that. But it’s also where you started with this with regards to that cultural piece. Why are we doing this? Because then you can have that conversation with them, that communication is based on, this isn’t about me trying to take something from you, this is about us both getting something together. So if we agree at the start that I’m going to call you out on stuff, and you’re going to call me out on stuff, but it’s under the proviso that we both know that the intention of this is that we help each other, we challenge each other to get better for the good of all of us, then that’s a different conversation than, well, marketing haven’t done this, or the sales guys have let us down. I always used to love the joke of the fact that the sales people would often turn around and say product and marketing never make something that we can sell and product and marketing turn around and say the sales guys can never sell the stuff we make. And it becomes this challenge in battle, rather than turning around and saying, what do our customers want? What do our customers want and need? And what’s the most effective way of helping them to get that and then we all sit back and go, huh, well that’s a slightly different perspective.

Jason Robinson  49:21

Yeah, yeah. And I know…so those relationships within an organisation are massive, and we sort of got to know each other on a rugby field, like, like brothers. So you know, you spend a lot of time with each other, a lot of social time, you know, in and out of these pockets all the time. And, you know, I think sometimes within business, some of the ones that are really successful is where they take that bit of time to get to know somebody on the desk across from them, instead of just, hi, how are you doing? You know, we knew each other’s families, we knew each other’s situation, you know, if something happened within their family, then we know about it., do you know what I mean? There might be a bereavement, there might be something and those kind of spotting certain things. Why is Jason off today? He doesn’t seem his normal self. And we can spot times where we’re a bit low and we can kind of help or we can just build each other up and then there might be some times it’s slightly, well, what’s up with you?

I think the relationship of teams is massive, because yes, we’re doing a job, yes, we want to be successful. But I think when you know something about somebody, it’s just like in a best mate. You know, if you know somebody, you know, you’re kind of…you want your mate to be successful. And sometimes you forget, you’re in the same team, I should want you to hit your bonuses. I should, you know, I shouldn’t be like thinking we’re in the same team, why shouldn’t I want you to score? Why shouldn’t I want you to get your bonuses? I think sometimes you should put the company’s bonuses on, the biggest side of it, on the company’s success as opposed to individual success. I suppose everybody’s driven by different things, whether it’s business or sport and within sport, some may be driven by the money, some are driven by the fame, some are driven by the attention on them. I suppose that’s the same in business, you know, some people just want to hit that target, if I hit that, I get my bonus. And that’s all I’m bothered about.

Al Fawcett  51:05

Well, a number of key areas that I work with with people is, first and foremost, is self awareness. Is that thing of, so what does drive you? What is important to you? And then the motivation side of things with regards to some people are driven by trying to move away from pain and others towards pleasure and all that sort of bits and pieces. But it’s also that most of the challenges that I will tend to work with within business is relationship based, it’s normally based on there’s a breakdown, or they’re projecting a problem on a relationship with somebody else, whether it’s a function or a team or an individual. And it’s normally outward focused. And that’s where that self awareness piece comes in. So what role do you play in that? And holding that mirror up to challenge people on those sort of bits and pieces. And that can be quite an interesting one for people to have to deal with, because they’re not used to doing it. So what you’ve probably come from is a culture from a very young man within team environments of we’re going to call you out on it, and we’re going to call you out on it quick, simple and to the point, there’s no let’s go and have a chat for an hour, let’s do an annual appraisal or whatever, it’s going to be one of those, that wasn’t right, and let’s get back in the game. And we’re on and we’re running.

But there’s one other thing that sort of popped into my head, you said that you’ve always had this, but it started right from the beginning as a young man, and this was part of your resilience. And obviously the lessons you learned from your mum, which were all fantastic. But you said that you were always too small, not strong enough, all these sort of bits and pieces, these labels that people put on there. When it comes to whether it be sports, teams, those sort of things or business, one of the things we often hear thrown around is, there’s performance and then there’s potential. Now you obviously had performance. But there was people sort of going well, I’m not sure about his potential because of his size and his strength. And you just burst through that and prove them wrong. How do you, when you’re going into businesses, do you see a trend or a method or approach to measuring or spotting potential, we can always measure performance. How do you measure potential?

Jason Robinson  53:08

Well, it’s a difficult one, when I sort of left sport and came into business, I mean, I’m learning on the job. I’ve just tried to spread my bets on stuff if I’m honest, because you know, I don’t know a lot about many different industries, but I can go into any room anywhere and meet anybody. And I’d have some way of working with you, definitely, there’s nobody I can’t work with, nobody, because I’ve sort of spread my bets across health, tech, drinks, cars, clothing, security, logistics, you know, recruitment company, there’s 1,000,001 different things. And there are some trends in some of those businesses, there might be a health and wellbeing, there might be a new drink, there might be a fashion thing, there might be a new car. And sometimes you think the future is electric, you’re always going to take a bit of a punt on certain things, but I’ve just tried to spread, spread some of that risk.

And again, go into it, firstly, see who’s running it, you know, see what they’re looking to achieve within the market, see what resources they’ve got, quite often it’s not the company that’s got millions and millions behind them. It might be the team that they’ve got that you see the potential and you think, wow, you got these guys day to day, you’ve got these guys advising, you know, you’ve got, I mean, there’s so much knowledge that can come from this company, they’ve come from that company, and they’re winners, and they’re going to make sure that what is done here is overseen. So I think sometimes it’s different in the companies, but ultimately, I want to work with people that I like, and that like me, that’s normally a simple one. And I think if they’ve…you know if they’re willing to put in the hours, if they’re willing to really really push the boundaries and you know, that’s the type of people that I want to be around, you know, the people that wake up and and really got the bit between their teeth because you want to be successful. You know, I don’t, I don’t want to be with people that know it all. But I want to be with people that want success. And now that actually sometimes failure is part of success.

And, and through it all, if we do all do our job, even if we’re not successful, we can maybe assess it in three years time, look at each other and think, we gave it a bloody good go, do you know what I mean, because there’s no, there’s no guarantees, there’s no guarantee that, oh, this is going to work, or that’s gonna work. You know, sometimes it might be timing, sometimes things work out just because somebody comes into life at the right time, with a bit of money to invest, all of a sudden, it gives you the platform, boom. And sometimes you can have a great product and the timings not right, because you can’t find that investment. And you can’t do that marketing. And all of a sudden, no, it’s taking you two years to come to the market with it, and somebody else has already beaten you, and that opportunity is lost. And this is why it’s so interesting, because there’s not just right, if you do this, and you do that, then you will have success. There’s a lot of different parts to it that are moving all the time trends, COVID now. You know, who would have thought that the aviation sector would be on its knees, you know, the hospitality sector will be on its knees. It’s just bonkers. So I’m in a good place at the moment in terms of the people I work with, the potential of the business, but it’s those relationships within the business that keep driving me. 

Al Fawcett  56:18

And I think that’s the key for me, it’s the people. So what I took from that is, it’s the relationship of the people, it’s the potential of the people. And it seems like a lot of those people that you’re resonating with have similar sort of values to you, they have a purpose, they have a drive. And they have that resilience, they want to be part of a success, rather than it all being about, I just want to turn up…as we said at the beginning, lots of people will have potential and it’s whether or not they unlock it or not. And it’s whether or not they’ve got that drive and resilience and that purpose to keep charging forward as it were, to stick their hand up and say, give me the ball again. I think there’s lots of things we can unpick with that. But I just want to say thanks ever so much for today. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, taken a lot from it. And thank you for your time.

Jason Robinson  57:03

Absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Al Fawcett  57:05

How great was that conversation? Once again, I want to say a big thank you to Jason for sharing his time and his stories. At infinite pie, we talk about ensuring we do stuff that matters with people who count in places that inspire. It’s all about focus on the priorities, about teamwork and relationships, and of course, culture and environment, including the one inside of you and your mindset. This conversation captured all of that and demonstrated the importance of dedication, hard work, confidence, positive self talk, trust and resilience. But it was more than just catchphrases and buzzwords. Jason gave his context to what it means to be a leader among leaders, to have a voice and be prepared to listen, to go out of your comfort zone, and to continue to learn something new. If you want to know more about Jason, you can go to his website, jasonrobinson.co.uk. And I’ll also put the links to the various social media platforms in the show notes. Now as always, I also want to say thanks to you for taking the time to listen and to share these stories with people you feel may enjoy and benefit from them. If you want, you can always reach out to me via all the socials or at infinitepie.co.uk. And you can let me know what you think, what you’ve taken from it, and of course, what you’re doing is a result. For now, go and do stuff that matters.

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